On The Road To Roswell 2008: A Discussion With Donald Burleson

By Thomas Horn
RaidersNewsNetwork.com
6-9-08

Editors note: This is part of a special series of Raiders News Network interviews focusing on the 61st Anniversary of the 1947 Roswell, New Mexico UFO Incident. RNN is joined by Donald Burleson, New Mexico State Director of MUFON, the Mutual UFO Network, and author of "UFOs and the Murder of Marilyn Monroe."

RNN: Donald, thank you for once again participating in the Road to Roswell. Of course this series involves the subject of UFOs and related phenomena. You have said in your book The Golden Age of UFOs that sometimes the old “classic” UFO cases are the best. Why is that?

BURLESON: The old cases from the late 1940s through, say, the late 1950s, or even a bit later, are often the best because they happened in a different age, in some ways a more ‘innocent’ age if I can put it that way. If someone has a photo purporting to be of a UFO from back then, it’s pretty hard for that to have been faked so well that modern computer image analysis couldn’t tell. Half a century ago the technology for faking things didn’t exist the way it does today.

RNN: You’re speaking at this year’s UFO Festival in Roswell on some of the old cases you’ve worked on, particularly the Lubbock Lights and the Levelland, Texas case. Why those?

BURLESON:Those are extremely important UFO cases for a number of reasons. There were numerous witnesses, for one thing, and official denial and silly cover stories for another.

RNN: What kind of official denial or cover stories?

BURLESON: In the case of the Lubbock Lights—and I have new witnesses from all over west Texas who saw these things in late August of 1951—the government and military people said the lights were the reflection of streetlamps on the bottoms of ducks. Never mind that I have a new witness who saw them out in the country where there were no lights, and never mind that I’ve estimated the airspeed of the objects at between 1,300 and 1,600 miles per hour, a bit too fast for ducks unless you shoot them out of a cannon.

RNN: What about Levelland?

BURLESON: In Levelland, Texas, on the night of November 2-3, 1957, a large oval object landed on the roadways around the town in several spots and was seen by several motorists, as well as by Sheriff Weir Clem. The government and military people said that this one was ‘ball lighting,’ but told the sheriff to ‘drop it’ and in fact warned him in very harsh terms never to talk about what he had seen. Pretty strange if all these people saw was lightning.

RNN: How do you know they threatened the sheriff?

BURLESON: Well, in effect I reopened the case, when my wife Mollie and I spend several days there finding new witnesses, and as part of this process I located and interviewed one of Sheriff Clem’s daughters, who told me in no uncertain terms that they told her father to keep his mouth shut if he knew what was good for him.

RNN: So you feel that both these cases are strongly supported by witnesses, and not likely to be hoaxes or ordinary circumstances misinterpreted?

BURLESON: That’s exactly right. In the end we have a choice in the field of UFO studies. We can believe the government cover stories, or we can believe well-correlated, thoughtful testimony of intelligent witnesses. I’ll vote for the witnesses.

RNN: In your estimation are there modern UFO cases that may be as important as these old classic cases?

BURLESON: In spite of the fact that we have to be very careful about what we believe nowadays, I would say yes, there are still very important and very well-attested cases happening. Certainly in 1997 the Phoenix Lights would be a prime example. Another would be the Stephenville, Texas sightings of January 8, 2008. Both of these cases had many hundreds of witnesses, and the events described can’t be mundanely explained away, even though the authorities have tried. They insult our intelligence by trying to do that.

RNN: Three years ago during the anniversary of Marilyn Monroe's death, a Los Angeles County prosecutor who investigated her case said the he wanted a new autopsy done on the Hollywood sex symbol because large doses of barbiturates found in her body may have been administered "by someone else." John Miner, 86, told the Los Angeles Times that Monroe's psychologist, Dr. Ralph Greenson, had allowed him to listen to secret audiotapes made by the star during one of her therapy sessions just before her death and that a "key revelation of the alleged tapes" was that "Monroe was not depressed." She was in fact anything but suicidal according to Minor--very happy, and actively planning her future. What did Minor believe happened to Monroe? He wasn't exactly saying, but he indicated she had been "suicided" by the CIA. You are the one man who may know the real story behind Marilyn Monroe's death and whether or not Miner was right, or partly right, since you wrote the book titled "UFOs AND THE MURDER OF MARILYN MONROE". What first suggested to you that the death of Marilyn Monroe was connected to UFO secrecy?

BURLESON: It was the now famous Marilyn Monroe CIA memo, which has circulated for a number of years now since its being released by FOIA request.

RNN: The infamous libido of the Kennedy boys, as well as in a bigger sense how often other famous men have gotten in trouble over beautiful women, is nothing new. Why else would foreign and domestic government intelligence agencies spend so much time and money recruiting femme fatales as spies in order to bring us dumb men down, right? But the purported CIA document you have mentioned in the past, dated 3 August 1962, which surfaced in the early 1990’s may reveal that Marilyn Monroe was 'suicided' over something even more intimate; her knowledge of the Roswell UFO crash and the recovery of alien bodies -- information she allegedly was told during pillow talk with John F. Kennedy. If you can, tell us what this document actually says and also whether the legitimacy of the document has ever been authenticated.

BURLESON: Basically it says that the government is worried about John Kennedy's having told Marilyn classified information, and given that it mentions the President's visit to a secret air base to view "things from outer space," it's clear that that means UFO information. Yes, the CIA document has been authenticated -- I tricked the CIA into authenticating it themselves, because I put in a FOIA request for Marilyn's wiretap transcripts, and when the CIA refused to release them (or even admit they had them) I filed an appeal based on the famous memo, and the appeal was accepted, which would be clearly contrary to Agency policy if they didn't themselves recognize the memo as legitimately one of their own as I had specified.

RNN: Following Vatican chief astronomer Father Jose Gabriel Funes interview saying it's okay for Catholics to believe in Aliens, Tom Horn wrote an article called Is the Vatican easing humanity toward alien disclosure? In it he pointed out how Funes was just the latest in a string of Vatican authorities including Guy Consolmagno, Monsignor Corrado Balducci, the now deceased Father Malachi Martin and others who in recent history provided carefully crafted language that almost seems to be designed to help church faithful face the possibility of ET contact. Consolmagno went so far as to the say the chances of finding ET are now better than not. Do you think the Vatican has ET evidence of some kind or knows that governments do and that it will someday be released?

BURLESON: It's conceivable. The Vatican is a vast fortress of secrecy itself in many ways, and it's pretty nearly as hard to know what's going on there as it is what's going on in black-budget government outfits.

RNN: In the several interviews we have done with Jesse Marcel Jr. on radio and news print, we asked him a question that often comes up about UFOs and religion. Jesse is a devout Catholic and like some of the high profile church astronomers that have been in the news recently talking about the possibility of intelligent alien life, he agrees that contact with extraterrestrials or some other proof of their existence is not in conflict with church's teachings. Have you given any thought to this question concerning the spiritual or psychological ramifications of what Roswell may represent with regard to people's religious ideas?

BURLESON: I'm an atheist myself and have never had any conflict between UFOlogy and any other corners of my mind, but frankly I don't see why religious people should have any conflict either. It may be psychologically somewhat unsettling, though, for some, if we end up having to admit, universally, that we're a young and relatively undeveloped species compared to some of our visitors.

RNN: What do you make of the latest Indiana Jones film and its ties to Roswell.

BURLESON: I haven't seen the film yet, but in general filmmakers do sometimes seem to have interesting inside tracks, somehow. The classic film THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL for example uses the character-name "General Cutler," and it's interesting that someone in that production must have been aware that there really was a UFO-involved Cutler (a former general) on the Truman and Eisenhower staffs.

RNN: Well then I won't ruin the film by telling you the plot, but it does involve Roswell and 1947. Have you worked on the Roswell case itself?

BURLESON: Yes, I've done decipherment work on the famous Ramey Memo, have interviewed witnesses, and have done mathematical-physics trajectory studies of the crash.

RNN: What do you see for the future, in the field of UFO studies?

BURLESON: As a professional mathematician, I'm delighted to see the whole field of UFO studies moving very solidly in the direction of scientific rigor. I've always been one of the "hard science" guys in this field, and I'm glad to see us moving away from mysticism and nonsense and into disciplined fields of study. UFOlogy deserves to be thought of as a respectable science itself, and that's coming.

RNN: Are you giving a lecture during the Roswell Festival this year? If so, tell us what it's about and when and where people can hear it.

BURLESON: Yes, I'm doing a talk on July 4th (don't know what time of day yet) titled "Lubbock, Levelland, Roswell, and the Reality of Extraterrestrial Visitation." I've been privileged to work on some of these classic cases, and I want to describe some of what I've been able to find out, via a PowerPoint slide show.

RNN: Donald, thanks for taking time to discuss this research with us during The Road To Roswell 2008 series. Please tell us how people can learn more about your research.

BURLESON: Go to my publisher website www.blackmesapress.com where you can see some of my books, and also some mathematical research I've been engaged in.

More . . .

See Also:

On The Road To Roswell 2007: A Discussion With Col. Jesse Marcel Jr. - Part II -

On The Road To Roswell 2007: A Discussion With Nuclear Physicist Stanton T. Friedman - Part I -

SHARE YOUR UFO EXPERIENCE

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On The Road To Roswell 2007: A Discussion With Nick Pope- Part V -

By Tom Horn
Raiders News Network
5-28-07

Editors note: This is the fifth in a special series of Raiders News Network interviews focusing on the 60th Anniversary of the 1947 Roswell, New Mexico UFO Incident. Tom Horn is joined by Nick Pope, former project leader for the British Government's UFO department at the Ministry of Defence. Initially skeptical, Nick's research and investigation into the UFO phenomenon and access to formerly classified government files on the subject soon convinced him that the phenomenon raised important defence and national security issues, especially when the witnesses were military pilots or where UFOs were tracked on radar.

     HORN: Nick. Thanks for joining me today. Earlier this year I emailed you when Britain declared it was going to open its MoD UFO files to the public. Because you had ran this department for the British Government, I wanted to know if we should expect anything unusual in these materials. You emailed me back to say that I should not expect a smoking gun, but that there were some devils in the details. What has been the result of the MoD files going public?

POPE: Although a good deal of material is already available at the National Archives and on the MoD website, the rest of the UFO files have yet to be made public. Two separate things are happening right now. Firstly, 24 Defence Intelligence Staff UFO files are going to be considered for release. These were part of a much larger batch of files (on various subjects) that had been contaminated with asbestos. Originally it was feared they'd have to be destroyed, sparking outrage from historians and leading to various conspiracy theories. At huge cost, the files have now been decontaminated and can be considered for release in the normal way. Numerous ufologists have made Freedom of Information Act requests in relation to these files. The second thing that's happening is that the MoD has decided to release its entire archive of UFO files, not least because of the increasing burden of responding to FOI requests (the MoD get more FOI requests in relation to UFOs than on any other subject, including the war in Iraq). This is a massive job and may take months, if not years, as personal details of witnesses have to be removed, along with any information that would genuinely compromise national security - e.g. information on the capability of military radar systems.

HORN: When and why was the MoD's UFO Project set up?

POPE: The MoD's UFO project has its roots in a 1950 initiative by the then Chief Scientific Adviser, Sir Henry Tizard. He said that UFO sightings shouldn't be dismissed out of hand without some form of proper scientific study. The MoD then set up a body called the Flying Saucer Working Party, to look into the phenomenon. It reported its sceptical conclusions (that UFO sightings were attributable to misidentifications, hoaxes or delusions) in 1951 and recommended that no further action be taken. But there was a series of high-profile UFO sightings in 1952 when UFOs were tracked on radar and seen by military pilots. This forced the RAF and the MoD to think again, and the Department has been investigating UFO sightings pretty much continuously since then. To date, there have been over 10,000 sightings reported to the MoD.

HORN: What is the MoD's policy on UFOs?

POPE: The policy is to investigate UFO sightings to see whether there's evidence of anything of any defence significance, i.e. evidence of any threat to the defence of the UK, or information that may be of use to us, scientifically or militarily. Having a UFO project in no way implies a corporate belief in extraterrestrial visitation. It simply reflects the fact that we keep a watchful eye on our airspace and want to know about anything operating in the United Kingdom's Air Defence Region. Although the British effort was on a much smaller scale, the terms of reference and methodology were virtually identical to that of the United States Air Force study, Project Blue Book.

HORN: MoD also acknowledged that a government UFO unit, known as S4F (Air) and DI55, existed. Tells us about this unit and what they did (or do).

POPE: S4(Air) no longer exists. It was a division that had responsibility for UFO investigations some years ago. Like any bureaucracy, the MoD undergoes frequent reorganisations where divisions are opened, closed, merged, split or restructured. It's a nightmare! So, over the years, all sorts of different areas have had responsibility for UFOs, leading some researchers to wrongly conclude there are many different areas of the MoD all working on the subject. In fact, at any one time, there'll be a division that has the lead for policy and investigations (i.e. where I worked) and a number of other areas on whose specialist skills and expertise the lead division can call. DI55 is part of the Defence Intelligence Staff. They were one of the specialist branches that I could bring in to assist me with certain aspects of my UFO investigations. Up until a few years ago I couldn't talk about this aspect of my work at all, or even acknowledge the existence of DI55. Recently, however, details have emerged under FOI, including some documents relating to my own dealings with them. But as I'm sure you'll understand, this is still an area of my work that I can't discuss in any great detail.

HORN: How were you recruited into the UFO Project?

POPE: I joined the Ministry of Defence in 1985. At the time, the policy was to move people every 2 or 3 years - either on level transfer or promotion - so that everybody gained experience in a wide range of different jobs: policy, operations, personnel, finance, etc. I'd done 2 or 3 different jobs and prior to taking up my post on the UFO project I was working in a division called Secretariat(Air Staff), where I'd been seconded into the Air Force Operations Room in the Joint Operations Centre. I worked there in the run-up to the first Gulf War, during the war itself, and in the aftermath of the conflict. It was while working there that I was approached and asked whether, after I was released from duties in the Joint Operations Centre, I would like to run the UFO project, which was embedded in another part of Secretariat(Air Staff). I accepted the invitation. So, in a sense, I was headhunted.

HORN: Did your views change from the time you started working with MoD until you left the department?

POPE: I knew little about the subject before I joined and I certainly had no belief in extraterrestrials. So while I was open-minded in all my investigations, my start point was broadly sceptical. As I began to read into the archive of previous files, and as I began to undertake my own official research and investigation, my views began to change and I became more open to the possibility that some UFOs had more exotic explanations. What impressed me most were cases where UFOs were seen by trained observers such as police officers, where they were tracked on radar, where they were seen by pilots, and where there was evidence to suggest that UFOs were performing speeds and manoeuvres way ahead of the capabilities of even our most advanced aircraft. My position now is that while I can't say what these UFOs are, the phenomenon raises important defence, national security and flight safety issues. I've seen no proof that these things are extraterrestrial, but I don't rule out this possibility.

HORN: What were your procedures / protocols for investigating UFO sightings?

POPE: We used to receive 200 - 300 reports each year and the methodology of an investigation is fairly standard. Firstly, you interview the witness to obtain as much information as possible about the sighting: date, time and location of the sighting, description of the object, its speed, its height, etc. Then you attempt to correlate the sighting with known aerial activity such as civil flights, military exercises or weather balloon launches. We could check with the Royal Greenwich Observatory to see if astronomical phenomena such as meteors or fireballs might explain what was seen. We could check to see whether any UFOs seen visually had been tracked on radar. If we had a photograph or video, we could get various MoD specialists to enhance and analyse the imagery. We could also liaise with staff at the Ballistic Missile Early Warning System at RAF Fylingdales, where they have space-tracking radar. Finally, on various scientific and technical issues, we could liaise with the Defence Intelligence Staff, although as I've said previously, this is an area of my work that I can't discuss in any detail.

HORN: What did you conclude about the majority of your investigations?

POPE: I concluded that sightings could be categorised as follows. Around 80% could be explained as misidentifications of something mundane, such as aircraft lights, weather balloons, satellites, meteors, etc. In approximately 15% of cases there was insufficient information to make a firm assessment. That left around 5% of sightings that seemed to defy any conventional explanation. But while we could say with reasonable certainty what these 5% weren't, we couldn't say what they were. They were by definition unknown, unexplained, or whatever word you care to use.

HORN: The Flying Saucer Working Party was set up in October 1950 by Ministry of Defence Chief Scientific Adviser Sir Henry Tizard. Was this a reaction to the 1947 Roswell incident or something else?

POPE: It wasn't a reaction to the Roswell incident, but to increasing numbers of UFO sightings in the UK and elsewhere, and to the associated media coverage. As a scientist, Tizard knew that any assessment of UFOs not based on investigation was assumption and guesswork, and therefore meaningless. He didn't have any firm view on the phenomenon but he knew UFOs were being reported in considerable numbers and he wanted to know what they were.

HORN: Britain's most sensational UFO case occurred in December 1980 in Rendlesham Forest , between RAF Bentwaters and RAF Woodbridge. Tell us about that.

POPE: This is the UK's most famous UFO incident and it's sometimes referred to as "Britain's Roswell". Over a series of nights in December 1980 UFOs were seen by dozens of United States Air Force personnel at Bentwaters and Woodbridge, two RAF bases operated by the Americans. On the first night the UFO landed in Rendlesham Forest (which lies between the two bases) and one of the witnesses got close enough to touch it. Sketches from the USAF witness statements clearly show a craft with strange markings on its hull, which have been likened to Egyptian hieroglyphs. The UFO returned on another night and was seen by more witnesses, including the Deputy Base Commander, Lieutenant Colonel Charles Halt. At one point the UFO illuminated the spot where Halt and his team were standing and at another time the UFO was directly over Woodbridge, firing beams of light down at the base. Subsequently, radiation readings were taken at the location where the UFO had been seen on the first night. They peaked in three indentations found where the craft had apparently landed. The MoD's Defence Intelligence Staff assessed that the radiation levels were significantly higher than background levels. Subsequently it emerged that a radar operator at RAF Watton had tracked an object briefly, over the base. I re-opened the investigation into this case but was unable to determine what happened. It remains unexplained.

HORN: On 1 November 2006 you were involved with a Channel Five documentary, The British UFO Mystery. The programme focused on a wave of UFO sightings that occurred on 30 and 31 March 1993 -- The Cosford Incident -- where many of the witnesses were police officers and military personnel. What did you conclude about this case?

POPE: We had a wave of UFO sightings over the UK for a period of about six hours. Many of the witnesses included police officers and military personnel. At one point the UFO flew over RAF Cosford and RAF Shawbury. Witnesses described a vast triangular-shaped craft capable of moving from a virtual hover to speeds of well over a thousand miles an hour in seconds. I led the investigation at the time and even my Head of Division, who was extremely sceptical about UFOs, was intrigued by this case. We even briefed the Assistant Chief of the Air Staff, one of the UK's most senior RAF officers. Channel Five's recent investigative documentary exposed the case to over a million viewers on primetime terrestrial TV and led to over 30 new witnesses coming forward. The production company had obtained the MoD case file on the incident (which ran to over 100 pages of documentation) under the Freedom of Information Act and asked me to front the programme, talking viewers through the case an the MoD investigation. As a result of the interest generated by the programme, the MoD made the file available on its website. The file includes my sceptical Head of Division's briefing to the Assistant Chief of the Air Staff, which states "In summary, there would seem to be some evidence on this occasion that an unidentified object (or objects) of unknown origin was operating over the UK". This is as close as the MoD will ever get to saying that there's more to UFOs than misidentifications or hoaxes.

HORN: What were some of the other interesting UFO cases you investigated?

POPE: It's difficult to single out interesting cases unless they're on the scale of something like Rendlesham Forest or the Cosford Incident. Also, it's difficult for me to talk about cases the MoD hasn't yet released. I can't anticipate what the Department will release and what they may withhold, so you'll have to await the release of the files. But in general terms I can say that other interesting cases included some radar/visual cases, cases where UFOs were seen close to military bases, and some interesting sightings by civil and military pilots - including a few near-misses, where collisions were only narrowly avoided. Both the MoD and our Civil Aviation Authority has information on several such cases, and whatever one's beliefs about UFOs, the flight safety implications should be of concern to everyone. When the MoD released Project Condign last year (a highly classified study that had its roots in discussions I had with the Defence Intelligence Staff in 1993) some of the most interesting recommendations related to this point. One read "No attempt should be made to out-manoeuvre a UAP during interception". Another recommendation states "At higher altitudes, although UAP appear to be benign to civil air-traffic, pilots should be advised not to manoeuvre, other than to place the object astern, if possible". UAP was the abbreviated form of Unidentified Aerial Phenomena, a term we decided to use instead of UFO, as it sounded more scientific.

HORN: Why did you leave the MoD's UFO department?

POPE: After having done the job for 3 years I was promoted and moved to another post at a higher grade. There's certainly no truth to the rumour that I was moved because I was getting too close to the truth, as some conspiracy theorists allege. After I left, I took up a financial policy post, before moving to a security-related job.

HORN: Yet you still work in a different capacity at the Ministry of Defence, correct?

POPE: No. I resigned last year and left the MoD at the end of October. I'd greatly enjoyed my 21 year career, but decided it was time to seek fresh challenges. I have a number of business interests and I now have more time to pursue these.

HORN: I once asked Stanton Friedman a similar question I'd like to ask you. How do you respond to allegations that you're involved in a cover-up or that you're a disinformation agent?

POPE: How can I respond? You can't prove a negative. The rumour isn't true, but if people believe this sort of thing they won't believe my denial, or the MoD's confirmation of my departure. I can't win. It does amaze me though, how many people genuinely seem to believe this. I get asked it a lot and see the theory discussed frequently on various websites and discussion lists. The bottom line is that I worked for the Government for 21 years, for the very people who many conspiracy theorists believe are covering up the truth about UFOs. To them, the government are the bad guys, so I'm the bad guy, who's part of the conspiracy.

HORN: Your investigations ultimately led to other unexplained phenomena. What do you make of so-called alien abductions?

POPE: While none of these other subjects were in the UFO project's terms of reference, they inevitably ended up on my desk, because there was nowhere else to send them. I've probably looked into around 100 cases of alien abduction. Some of these cases were reported to me at the MoD, but most people contacted me after I'd written a book on the subject, called The Uninvited. Some sceptics say these people are attention seekers after their 15 minutes of fame, but this clearly isn't true. Out of the hundred or so abductees I've been involved with, maybe half a dozen are interested in engaging with the media or the UFO community. Most aren't interested. Other people suggest these people are delusional, but again, this theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The few scientists who have looked at this phenomenon have found no signs of psychopathology in the abductees, and evidence (in terms of increased heartrate and perspiration) that they genuinely believe they've had these experiences. The use of regression hypnosis in some of these cases clouds the issue. The scientific community generally doesn't accept the validity of the technique in recovering suppressed memories, and indeed many believe it can distort memories or even create false ones. But regression hypnosis isn't used in all abduction cases, so we can't say False Memory Syndrome is the answer. Something's going on with these people, but the truthful answer is that we don't know what's happening.

HORN: Crop circles?

POPE: Some of the small, single circles (and that's where the phenomenon started) may be attributable to some form of meteorological phenomenon such as a whirlwind or wind vortex. As for the more complex ones - the so-called pictograms - there's no doubt in my mind that most of them are made by people. I've seen it done. Some of the people involved in this are highly skilled and motivated, plan the formations meticulously, well in advance, and split the work between several people. Some people call them hoaxers but many of the people involved see themselves as conceptual artists. Do I completely rule out a more exotic explanation? No. In my line of work, I tried never to rule anything out altogether, and always tried to keep an open mind.

HORN: Ghosts?

POPE: People associate ghosts with old houses, churches or pubs, but in my experience there are just as many reports of ghosts on military bases as anywhere else. I've received numerous such reports, often from the MoD Police officers or guards who have to patrol these areas at night. Now, these are pretty tough guys, as you can imagine, but some of them have been really spooked by what they've seen. All the classic signs are present in many of these cases: unexplained cold spots, guard dogs growling, with their hackles rising, at certain locations. And actual ghosts seen at sights where people have been killed. Ghosts have even been seen in MoD Main Building itself, where the modern headquarters is built on the site of the much older Whitehall Palace. The remains of Henry VIII's wine cellar are perfectly preserved in the basement, and there are some areas of the building where guards don't like to patrol alone at night. Perhaps the oddest report I received was an animal ghost story. During the Second World War, Wing Commander Guy Gibson (who led the famous Damn Busters raid) had a dog that was knocked down by a car and killed, shortly before the raid. The ghost of this dog has been seen several times at RAF Scampton.

HORN: You've written extensively about your work with MoD. Is this not a problem since you signed the Official Secrets Act?

POPE: I signed the Official Secrets Act on my first day in the MoD and even though I've left, it binds me for life. But it doesn't preclude writing or speaking about my work. Politicians invariably keep diaries and write memoirs, and military officers often write accounts of their careers. There's no bar on this sort of activity, provided you follow various rules and procedures, the most obvious one being the absolute prohibition on revealing any classified information.

HORN: Your books include "Open Skies, Closed Minds", "The Uninvited", "Operation Thunder Child", and "Operation Lightning Strike". Anything else you are working on?

POPE: Researching and writing a book typically takes me between 6 months and a year. While I intend to write further books (both non-fiction and fiction) at some stage, the pressure of other commitments means that I simply don't have time for this at the moment. I have numerous media commitments (mainly television work) and various private business interests to look after. These are my priorities at present.

HORN: This is the 60th anniversary of the Roswell UFO incident. What is your opinion about what happened there in 1947?

POPE: Clearly something crashed. But in my experience, if UFO sightings aren't solved quickly, they're unlikely to be solved at all. With that in mind, 60 years on, with most of the direct participants dead, the chances are we'll never be certain what happened at Roswell. Unless some 'smoking gun' emerges that's beyond dispute, I suspect the events will remain a mystery.

HORN: How do you think ufology can best use the 60th anniversary of Roswell to promote the subject?

POPE:To keep the subject in the public eye and generate as much serious, mainstream media coverage as possible. Spin-off benefits from this should include encouraging more people to report their UFO sightings, and bringing new people to the subject. But, fascinating though Roswell is, ufology should look forward as well as back. Promoting ufology should involve not just the old cases, but recent ones such as the sighting of a UFO over O'Hare airport or the sighting by the pilot who saw a UFO in the vicinity of the Channel Islands. It should also focus on the release of UFO files by the British and French governments. Finally, ufology might also consider how it could best engage with the scientific community, and in particular engage in constructive dialogue with those involved in SETI research.

HORN: Will you be in Roswell this July?

POPE: I have no current plans to come to Roswell this July, but I'll probably be doing some media interviews here in the UK, to tie in with the anniversary.

HORN: Thank you for taking time to do this interview.

Some of the speakers at this year's Roswell festivities include Col. Jesse Marcel Jr, Dennis Balthaser, Greg Bishop, Donald Burleson, PhD, Stephen Bassett, Richard Dolan, Adam GoRightly, Stanton Friedman, John Greenewald, Paola Harris, Michael S. Heiser PhD, Tom Horn, Dr. Roger Leir, Guy Malone, Nicholas Redfern, John Rhodes, Peter Robbins, Rob Simone, and many more.

Learn more about the 60th Anniversary Roswell Festivals at both official websites:
http://www.roswellufofestival.com
http://www.roswellufomuseum.com/festival.htm

More . . .

See Also:

On The Road To Roswell 2007: A Discussion With Col. Jesse Marcel Jr.
- Part II -

On The Road To Roswell 2007: A Discussion With Dennis G. Balthaser
- Part III -

SHARE YOUR UFO EXPERIENCE

On The Road To Roswell 2007: A Discussion With Donald R. Burleson- Part IV -

By Tom Horn
Raiders News Network
5-23-07

Editors note: This is the fourth in a special series of Raiders News Network interviews focusing on the 60th Anniversary of the 1947 Roswell, New Mexico UFO Incident. Tom Horn is joined by Donald Burleson, New Mexico State Director of MUFON, the Mutual UFO Network, and author of "UFOs and the Murder of Marilyn Monroe."

     HORN: Donald, let me introduce you by pointing back two years ago to the anniversary of Marilyn Monroe's death, when a Los Angeles County prosecutor who investigated her case said the he wanted a new autopsy done on the Hollywood sex symbol because large doses of barbiturates found in her body may have been administered "by someone else." John Miner, 86, told the Los Angeles Times that Monroe's psychologist, Dr. Ralph Greenson, had allowed him to listen to secret audiotapes made by the star during one of her therapy sessions just before her death and that a "key revelation of the alleged tapes" was that "Monroe was not depressed." She was in fact anything but suicidal according to Minor--very happy, and actively planning her future. What did Minor believe happened to Monroe? He wasn't exactly saying, but he indicated she had been "suicided" by the CIA. You are the one man who may know the real story behind Marilyn Monroe's death and whether or not Miner was right, or partly right. But before we get to that, tell us generally how you became interested in the subject of UFOs.

BURLESON: I had a close fly-by UFO sighting myself at the age of five on the night of 4 July 1947. This was "Roswell night" but I was 300 miles east of Roswell at my grandparents’ house in Breckenridge, Texas. From that time on, I was fascinated by the whole question of strange objects in the skies.

HORN: What is it like being the New Mexico State Director of MUFON, the Mutual UFO Network?

BURLESON: It’s an exciting position to serve in. I get sighting reports fairly often through the MUFON online Case Management System, and I assign them to one or another of our field investigators, sometimes assign them to myself depending on where the sighting was. The "N" in MUFON stands for "network," and that’s really what we are. It’s always gratifying to see so many people with common goals working together to try to get at the truth.

HORN: Since you have written a book titled UFOs AND THE MURDER OF MARILYN MONROE, what first suggested to you that the death of Marilyn Monroe was connected to UFO secrecy?

BURLESON: There is a now famous CIA document strongly suggesting that the CIA and other agencies were concerned over secrets imparted to Marilyn by John and Robert Kennedy, including matters related to at least one UFO crash retrieval.

HORN: I haven't read it, but I understand Matthew Smith, who paid a fee to Miner to use the Monroe transcript in his book, "Marilyn's Last Words: Her Secret Tapes and Mysterious Death," doesn't believe the Kennedys had anything to with her death. He believes disenchanted survivors of the Bay of Pigs, the CIA agents had her killed. What is your take on this?

BURLESON: If Matthew Smith thinks the Kennedys didn’t have anything to do with her death, he clearly doesn’t have all the information I have. Actually Donald Wolfe in his book "The Last Days of Marilyn Monroe" linked the Kennedys to Marilyn’s death, but Wolfe doesn’t go the extra step of asking why they would have her killed, or at least without entertaining the same hypotheses that I do. Wolfe reproduces the CIA "Marilyn memo" but says nothing about its references to a UFO crash retrieval. Steve Miner, by the way, whom you mentioned before, was right about Marilyn not being suicidally depressed. Her mood was one of defiance mixed with optimism. She was looking at something like twenty different movie scripts because of parts she was being offered, and had a million dollars’ worth of new contracts sitting on her attorney Mickey Ruden’s desk waiting for her to sign. The notion that she was depressed was simply part of the deception. Anyway, it’s clear to me that the Kennedys felt trapped when Marilyn started threatening to hold a news conference and "tell all." There would have been indictments against the president on criminal charges, having to do with unauthorized disclosure of classified information, and in the process the public would have found out a great deal more than the government was willing to reveal. And by the way, I also have an FBI document that places Bobby Kennedy smack in the middle of things the night Marilyn died of a massive lethal injection of pentobarbitol and chloral hydrate. They wanted her dead to shut her up once and for all about what she knew.

HORN: The infamous libido of the Kennedy boys, as well as in a bigger sense how often other famous men have gotten in trouble over beautiful women, is nothing new. Why else would foreign and domestic government intelligence agencies spend so much time and money recruiting femme fatales as spies in order to bring us dumb men down, right? But the purported CIA document you have mentioned, dated 3 August 1962, which surfaced in the early 1990’s may reveal that Marilyn Monroe was 'suicided' over something even more intimate; her knowledge of the Roswell UFO crash and the recovery of alien bodies -- information she allegedly was told during pillow talk with John F. Kennedy. If you can, tell us what this document actually says and also whether the legitimacy of the document has ever been authenticated.

BURLESON: The CIA "Marilyn memo" in part reads this way: "…she had secrets to tell, no doubt arising from her trists [sic] with the President and the Attorney General. One such ‘secret’ mentions the visit by the President at a secret air base for the purpose of inspecting things from outer space. [Dorothy] Kilgallen replied that she knew what might be the source of visit. In the mid-fifties Kilgallen learned of secret efforts by US and UK governments to identify the origin of crashed spacecraft and dead bodies, from a British government official. Kilgallen believed the story may have come from the New Mexico story in the late forties."

As for authentication of this document I have in effect been able to bring that about, myself, because I manipulated the CIA into authenticating the document themselves. I filed a Freedom of Information Act request with the CIA asking for the release of the transcripts from the wiretaps on Marilyn’s phones at the time of her murder. When the CIA refused to release any such transcripts to me, denying that they had them, I immediately filed an appeal, appending the "Marilyn memo" of 3 August 1962 as justification. The CIA accepted the appeal and sent the case up to the Agency Release Panel. Ultimately they still didn’t release the wiretap transcripts to me, but their acceptance of the appeal authenticated the document as one of their own, since it would have been contrary to Agency policy to accept the appeal if it were not based on a legitimate CIA document.

HORN: Your website says that your book on Marilyn Monroe presents NEW evidence connecting her death with the UFO cover-up; what is this NEW evidence?

BURLESON: My computer enhancements show a "bleed-in" (or optical show-through) on the CIA document involving the name of Brigadier General George Schulgen, who was the chief UFO investigator for the Air Force at the time. Clearly the Schulgen "intelligence collection memorandum" exhibit-document and the "Marilyn memo" had been archived together, and this obviously forges a link between Marilyn’s death and the whole matter of UFO secrecy.

HORN: We see that you and your wife moved to Roswell, New Mexico from New England in 1996; was this due to your interest in UFOs?

BURLESON: Yes, mainly. My wife Mollie and I have always loved the state of New Mexico and spent years trying to find a job and move here. But the UFO phenomenon in particular was the draw, for us, to Roswell itself.

HORN: Have you worked on the Roswell case itself?

BURLESON: Yes, I’ve worked on the Roswell case in a number of ways. I did much of the original decipherment work on the famous "Ramey memo," interviewed a number of major Roswell witnesses, and as a mathematician have done trajectory feasibility work to try to determine probable placement of the UFO impact site.

HORN: What other major UFO cases have you worked on?

BURLESON: I’ve worked on the Lubbock Lights case of 1951 (doing photo enhancement and airspeed estimations), the Levelland, Texas case of 1957 (reopening that case with new witnesses and new evidence), the Great Falls, Montana case of 1950, the Socorro, New Mexico landing case, and a number of other cases, including a recent one for which I was the original investigator, one I call the "Melrose Lights" case involving a close-encounter and lost-time experience that occurred about a hundred miles north of Roswell.

HORN: Why do you think the government continues to keep everything about UFOs secret?

BURLESON: People often ask why the government keeps up the secrecy routine. My best answer is that at this point they can’t tell us the truth, because it’s too late. There’s too big a bill to pay. They’ve threatened people, they’ve killed people (Marilyn is a notable example), they’ve committed all sorts of illegal acts and deceptions. There isn’t a word in the United States Constitution, or in statutory law for that matter, about the government’s right to keep everything secret, so they’re on very shake ground, legally, and they know it. All they can do now is keep telling the big lie, or just keep saying "no comment."

HORN: The field of UFO studies doesn't always get high respect among some scientists and academicians; why do you think this is the case?

BURLESON: It’s mostly peer pressure and professional concerns. If you’re a scientist working with federal grant money, you’ll lose it if you talk too much about UFOs. If you’re an academician interested in UFOs and you’re up for tenure, things could get awkward. I got my tenure okay at Eastern New Mexico University, but that was in Roswell!

HORN: What do you see for the future, in the field of UFO studies?

BURLESON: I think we will find out large parts of the truth, but not by any official disclosure. We’ll dig it all out for ourselves.

HORN: Are you giving a lecture during the Roswell Festival this year? If so, tell us what it's about and when and where people can hear it.

BURLESON: I’m lecturing on the murder of Marilyn Monroe at 11:00 a.m. on Thursday, 5 July at the Civic Center in Roswell.

HORN: How else can people find out about your research or get a copy of your book?

BURLESON: The best way is to visit my publisher website at www.blackmesapress.com

HORN: Donald, thanks for taking time to discuss this research with us during the Raiders News Network "On The Road To Roswell 2007" series.

BURLESON: My pleasure.

More . . .

See Also:

On The Road To Roswell 2007: A Discussion With Nuclear Physicist Stanton T. Friedman
- Part I -

On The Road To Roswell 2007: A Discussion With Col. Jesse Marcel Jr.
- Part II -

On The Road To Roswell 2007: A Discussion With Dennis G. Balthaser
- Part III -

SHARE YOUR UFO EXPERIENCE

On The Road To Roswell 2007: A Discussion With Dennis G. Balthaser- Part III -

By Tom Horn
Raiders News Network
5-21-07

Editors note: This is the third in a special series of Raiders News Network interviews focusing on the 60th Anniversary of the 1947 Roswell, New Mexico UFO Incident. Tom Horn is joined by Dennis Balthaser, a Certified Mutual UFO Network Field Investigator and full time independent researcher/investigator to the Roswell Incident, Area 51 and underground bases research. Dennis frequently lectures on these and other topics related to ufology.

HORN: Dennis, as a young man you would look into the night sky and wonder at the secrets it held. You served 3 years ('59-62) with the United States Army in the 815th Engineering Battalion, and after 33 years in Civil Engineering, retired from the Texas Department of Transportation and moved to Roswell, New Mexico, to pursue your avocation: Ufology. Tell me more about your background and how this current field of interest came to be your life.

BALTHASER: I'm actually into my third career.

36 years in civil engineering work doing quality assurance and quality contol of materials used to construct highways and bridges in Texas, traveling to 37 states, Korea once, and South Africa 3 times for 3 months each time to inspect materials. Retired in 1996.

33 years as a country and western musician playing drums in the El Paso, Texas area, with many entertainers from Nashville, and most recently, for 20 years as a hobby and the past 11 full time as a Ufologist.

If you add them up that makes me about 89 I believe!!! Luckily the careers overlapped.

HORN: What is your relationship with the International UFO Museum and Research Center, and why did you stop working with them at some point.

BALTHASER: I was a 70 hour per week volunteer with the Museum from 1996 until 1998, involved with relocating the Museum to it's current location and actively involved with the 50th anniversary operations in 1997. I obtained information and displays for the Museum, and was on the Board of Directors for a year as the UFO investigator for the Museum. In 1998 I began doing my research as an independent researcher and no longer have any affiliation with the Museum due to the current leadership of the Museum.

HORN: Can you give us any insight as to why the city of Roswell took over the Festival this year?

BALTHASER: Basically the Festival has not been successful the past few years with low attendance and very little community involvement, under the leadeship of the Museum, so the Mayor decided the city should take it over for the 60th anniversary this year and has the community involved with family oriented activities planned in addition to an outstanding Ufology related schedule.

HORN: A little side note as a special interest to me. Is Merle Haggard coming back?

BALTHASER: Merle is not coming back this year. He had planned on making the Roswell Festival an annual event but problems arose from a previous Festival. This year the Alan Parsons project will be doing two concerts plus other musical groups, with a laser light show at each concert.

HORN: From what I've read over the years, people see you as genuine, a person who looks for certification and honesty from other Ufologists. Who in your opinion stands out as respected, qualified researchers in the field?

BALTHASER: I am very serious about my research, try to be thorough and factual when possible, and brutally honest. I only work with a very few researchers such as Stanton Friedman, David Rudiak, Frank Warren and Scott Ramsey, whom I respect. Many researchers in this field have tremendous ego's and agendas and the aforementioned have proven themselves to be honest, sincere and trustworthy. A quote I like to use is "Always Telling the Truth Means Never Having to Remember Anything".

HORN:What areas of Ufolody interest you personally, and why?

BALTHASER: I have limited my research to 4 areas: The 1947 Roswell Incident, Area 51, Underground Bases and the Great Pyramids of Giza. I found out long ago if you try to be knowledgeable in all areas of Ufology you can't be informed as well as concentrating on specific areas.

HORN: So what about Area 51, Dulce, and underground bases. Have you found anything that makes you feel anything extraordinary has happened in these areas?

BALTHASER: I found the research on Undergound bases interesting due to my engineering background, being curious as to what type equipment was used, where these facilities were located and for what purpose. We, as in other countries, have been forced underground for much of our secretive development due to satellites and the prying eyes of our adversaries.

Dulce remains a mystery to me due to the many rumors about what might be taking place there, however recently I have begun to think it might be a diversionary location to take attention away from a another location.

Area 51 is alive and well as I was there (at the gates, not inside) last May when I did lectures in the nearby town of Rachel, NV. The signs still say the "use of deadly force is authorized", and the "cammo dudes" still protect the entrances in their jeeps and pickup trucks, watching you with binoculars from their vehicles. Area 51 is vitally needed for developing new technology and testing aircraft as it has since 1955, when the CIA opened the base to test the U-2 aircraft. Rumors about 22 levels below ground, S-4 and alien and craft stories continue to fascinate us.

The Pyramids of Giza and Underground bases are some of the most interesting research I've ever done, I think because they are physical things that one can grasp and try to understand, perhaps more so than UFOs. There is so much to learn and so little time.

HORN: Any comment on Bob Lazar and his allegations about S-4 (Sector Four), located near Groom Lake, Nevada, next to Area 51.?

BALTHASER: I don't believe him because his background (education, employment) can't be verified as correct as he has stated it. He has had some questionable situations in his personal life also that have created problems. Lazar and Lt Col. Corso (The Day After Roswell Book) are both individuals I'd like to believe but the documentation and verification for their claims is not there.

HORN: This year is the 60th anniversary of the Roswell UFO event. At a gut level, what do you believe really happened there in 1947?

BALTHASER: Factually something happened on a ranch northwest of Roswell in 1947 that is still covered up by the government and military 60 years later, even after we've been given 4 excuses by the Air Force during that time. I don't believe it was Russian nor belonging to the United States, which leaves the question "Whose was it?"

HORN: In January this year, National Geographic broadcast "The Real Roswell", a program you were involved with. Did they get the story right?

BALTHASER: Not even close. It was so biased in it's content and conclusion that Stanton Friedman and I both wrote articles sharing our disappointment with the National Geographic channel handling of the show. It was not based on factual information and apparently very little research had been done by them for presenting what was hyped as the "Real information" about Roswell. Typical of many documentaries that are based on ratings and profit rather than factual information.

HORN: What about the ABC-TV special with Peter Jennings a while back?

BALTHASER: Same as the National Geographic show mentioned above, with even more promotion, for a few minutes of factual information before being turned into just another ratings related biased take on the subject. You must understand that when these documentaries are being filmed, us researchers are expected to share all the knowledge we possess with no reimbursement for our years of research and absolutely no in-put for the editing or final version to be aired.

HORN: There have been some interesting UFO reports recently. The O'Hare Airport Sighting stands out. What other recent reports have you seen worthy of investigation?

BALTHASER: I don't investigate many such cases if they don't fall into the 4 categories I concentrate on, but I do maintain an interest in them such as the O'Hare sighting, the Phoenix lights years ago, Kecksburg and several others.

HORN: Last month scientists reported the discovery of Gliese 581, the most earth-like planet yet. What do you think about this?

BALTHASER: I'm not surprised with the discovery, but continually wonder why scientist insist that any life in the universe or other planet must mirror earth or us humans. We humans are very limited in our knowledge and most can't imagine anything that's not already known to us. I have no doubt that we ARE NOT the smartest kids on the block in this giant universe.

HORN: What about research some say points to artificial structures on Mars and other planets. Are you interested in this kind of related study, and what do you think the world's response would be to disclosure by NASA or the ESA that unnatural formations were found off planet?

BALTHASER: I have seen no evidence yet that artificial structures have been found on any other planets. Wishful thinking perhaps on the part of those that claim to see it. I'd be happy to see some with scientific proof and honesty from NASA. Incidentally, NASA stands for "Never A Straight Answer".

HORN: (Laughs) Do you expect "Official Disclosure" during your lifetime?
BALTHASER: Years ago I thought so, but I'm now 65 and doubt that it will happen in my lifetime, however if what serious researchers and myself do helps make it available for our children or grandchildren I'll consider it to have been worthwhile for all the frustration and expense over the years. I do think it's that important.

HORN: What will you be doing at Roswell this year? Any lectures you want people to attend?

BALTHASER: I was asked by the Mayor of Roswell to be on the planning committee since last October, and have promoted the Festival on 28 web sites world wide and done over 30 radio and other media interviews to promote it thus far. I will be speaking at the Art Museum (adjacent to the Convention Center) at 11am on July 5 doing my lecture entitled "The Roswell Incident: Then and Now". I will also have a vendors table in the convention center during the Festival.

HORN: How can people learn more about your research?

BALTHASER: My award winning web site is www.truthseekeratroswell.com and I'm associated with the pyramid research at www.gizapyramid.com

HORN: Thanks for joining us today. Roswell 2007 should be very interesting.

BALTHASER: Hope you and your audience can make it here for the Festival July 5-8, 2007.

More . . .

See Also:

On The Road To Roswell 2007: A Discussion With Nuclear Physicist Stanton T. Friedman
- Part I -

On The Road To Roswell 2007: A Discussion With Col. Jesse Marcel Jr.
- Part II -

SHARE YOUR UFO EXPERIENCE

On The Road To Roswell 2007: A Discussion With Col. Jesse Marcel Jr.- Part II -

Editors note: This is the second in a special series of Raiders News Network interviews focusing on the 60th Anniversary of the 1947 Roswell, New Mexico UFO Incident. Tom Horn is joined by Col. Jesse Marcel Jr., whose highly anticipated new book "The Roswell Legacy," is being released at the Roswell Festival this year (July 5-8 https://www.roswellufofestival.com/). Col. Marcel's book claims that the famous UFO event near the city actually occurred, including the recovery of an extraterrestrial craft. Col. Marcel's father, Maj. Jesse Marcel Sr. was the lead military investigator into the crash of 1947 and is finally vindicated according to this book–FW

HORN: Col. Marcel, it is so good to speak with you again. Thank you for taking time to talk to us about Roswell and your new book. You will be speaking and on some panels at Roswell this year. One question or correction. I note in the past we had the title of your book as "Roswell: It Really Happened", but I see it advertised elsewhere now as "The Roswell Legacy". Has the book title been changed?

By Tom Horn Raiders News Network 5-20-07

MARCEL: The book has evolved with time. As I was writing it, I realized that Legacy was more appropriate than what really happened. The title of the book is "The Roswell Legacy."

HORN: This is the 60th anniversary. Does it feel that long ago to you?

MARCEL: It is hard to believe that 60 years have passed on the calendar. It seems like yesterday to me to use a cliché'.

HORN: As the only man alive who the government admits handled material from the debris field in 1947, material your dad let you and your mother see as he stopped off at home on his way back to the base, how did that night effect you. It changed the course of UFOlogy and put Roswell and your family on the map.

MARCEL: It was then that I realized that our civilization was not alone certainly in the galaxy and that we were in fact being visited by others more advanced because they could get here from where ever they come from. I took it to mean that we were being studied from a scientifically curious race just as we would be curious about other life forms on our planet.

HORN: Col. Blanchard authorized a press release saying the military had recovered a flying disc. I assume he had some facts about what was recovered before he allowed the press release.

MARCEL: Certainly he had been briefed by my dad as to the true nature of the debris and that it represented an artifact from elsewhere which went along with all of the unusual sightings seen in the skies at that time.

HORN: Your father was ordered to load the debris onto a B-29 which was then flown to Wright Field and that is where General Roger Ramey took over. Correct.

MARCEL: He took a small representative portion of the debris for General Ramey's inspection and I am convinced that he realized that this was too big of a story to be unleashed on the public at that time.

HORN: What happened then?

MARCEL: My dad was told to participate in the cover story. And when he came home he sat my mother and myself down and said in no uncertain terms that we were never to discuss what we had seen. I later recalled him stating that he was part of the cover up.

HORN: Let me ask something more personal. What was your dad's qualifications to evaluate a crash site?

MARCEL: He was the intelligence officer for the 509th and had training in aircraft accident investigation and in addition he had gone to radar school so he was familiar with the types of radar targets used on weather balloons etc. He was a natural to have been sent out on the initial investigation of the debris.

HORN: The material your dad brought home. Tell us what you saw.

MARCEL: He had pre-positioned the debris on the kitchen floor so my mother and I could realize the unusual nature of the debris. What we saw was something certainly different from mundane material. I have described the debris itself many times so I don't know if you want that repeated here.

[EDITOR'S NOTE: Jesse Marcel Jr.’s first published recollections of the debris was that they were composed of: "...foil-like stuff, very thin, metallic-like but not metal, and very tough. There was also some structural-like material too - beams and so on. Also a quantity of black plastic material which looked organic in nature...Imprinted along the edge of some of the beam remnants there were hieroglyphic-type characters. I recently questioned my father about this, and he recalled seeing these characters also and even described them as being a pink or purplish-pink color. Egyptian hieroglyphics would be a close visual description of the characters seen, except I don't think there were any animal figures present as there are in true Egyptian hieroglyphics," (Berlitz, Charles and William Moore. The Roswell Incident. New York: Berkley, 1988, pgs 78-80]

HORN: You are a military man too. Have you ever saw anything that matches those materials?

MARCEL: As a flight surgeon, I was trained myself in aircraft accident investigations and have never seen anything that would match the debris.

HORN: What about the theory that this was a Mogul balloon?

MARCEL: A balloon is a balloon and the Mogul balloon had a classified mission, but it used off the shelf materials that was not unique.

HORN: Did you ever see the movie "Roswell"? Were you and the other events portrayed accurately in it?

MARCEL: For the most part it reflected what happened, there was of course some poetic license in depicting the event.

HORN: Last year in McMinnville you told me an interesting story about a trip to Washington where you wound up in the dungeons of the Capital building talking to somebody I believe was later identified as Dick D'Amato, an aide to Sen. Robert Byrd, who wanted to know where the Roswell UFO debris were. Tell us that story.

MARCEL: It was there that I was told that the event was not fiction. I don't know if you want me to go into the story again as I have related it many times. I am sorry that Mr. D'Amato's name came out because hopefully this would not cause any difficulties for him.

[EDITOR'S NOTE: To this day Jesse Marcel doesn't know how the participants in DC knew where he would be at that particular time. When he arrived at his motel, there was a message waiting for him on the phone in his room. It was from Dick D'Amato. He wanted to meet with Marcel the following day at 1:PM in a certain room at the Capital building. Marcel felt uneasy, but agreed to go to the meeting. On arrival, he was ushered into D'Amato's office, who got right down to business. He wanted to talk to Marcel about Roswell, and he asked if Jess would be more comfortable "in a secure room." When Marcel explained that he wouldn't be saying anything he hadn't said before, D'Amato pressed the idea of the alternate meeting area, explaining, "Well, maybe I want to tell you something you don't already know."

Leaving the office, they proceeded to the secure room where no listening devices existed, in an area Jess described as "the dungeons of the Capital building." They sat at a table where Marcel noticed a book about Alien Abductions, UFO technology and Roswell. D'Amato tapped on the book with his finger and said outright, "This is not fiction." He continued talking for a while and then asked Marcel if he knew where the material recovered from the Roswell ranch was being kept. Jesse found the question curious and said, "No. Don't you?" D'Amato's answer was as enigmatic as the question, so Marcel responded with a inquiry of his own: "If extraterrestrial activity is real, and you guys know it, when is the government planning Official Disclosure of what really happened at Roswell?" D'Amato said, "If it was up to me, we'd be doing it now" (as told to Tom Horn by Jesse Marcel Jr. in a 2006 interview. At that time, Jesse did not use Mr. D'Amato's name)].

HORN: I know that you are a spiritual man. How do you reconcile the idea of intelligent life somewhere else in the universe with your personal faith?

MARCEL: It strengthened my faith in God because His Creation is greater than anyone realized by populating the Universe with many different civilizations.

HORN: A lot of people are saying we are getting close to an official disclosure event from either the US Government or maybe the United Nations concerning some evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence. Other people point to the discovery of extra solar planets like Gliese 581 that was found recently that might be able to sustain life. What can you tell us, or what do you suspect, with regard to official disclosure?

MARCEL: It just confirms what I already new. It is only a question of time before a radio signal will be picked up by the SETI team and that will probably be the catalyst for our government to make the big announcement.

HORN: Any surprises in this new book?

MARCEL: It confirms the qualifications of my dad and proves he was who he was and that he knew what he was talking about.

HORN: Where can people get a copy of your new book?

MARCEL: We plan on releasing it at Roswell for the 60th anniversary of the event.

HORN: Thanks Jess for talking to us again. I'll be in Roswell this year and hope to see you again.

Learn more about the 60th Anniversary Roswell Festivals see both websites: https://www.roswellufofestival.com
https://www.roswellufomuseum.com/festival.htm

More . . .

See Also:

On The Road To Roswell 2007: A Discussion With Nuclear Physicist Stanton T. Friedman
- Part I -

Roswell - It Really Did Happen

Senate Staffer, Dick D'Amato's Statement On UFO Crashes in New Mexico

REPORT YOUR UFO EXPERIENCE

On The Road To Roswell 2007: A Discussion With Nuclear Physicist Stanton T. Friedman- Part I -

This is the first in a special series of Raiders News Network interviews focusing on the 60th Anniversary of the 1947 Roswell, New Mexico, UFO Incident. HORN: Stanton, Roswell is the pre-eminent story of Ufology. Some say whatever occurred near Roswell, NM, in July 1947 will

By Tom Horn Raiders News Network 5-18-07

never be known. Others like you disagree on some levels. You and Bill Moore brought this story to light many years ago. This is the most appropriate place to start this series, so please tell us how that happened.

STAN: I first heard of Roswell in the early 1970s from a woman named Lydia Sleppy whose son was a forest ranger in California .He had had a good sighting. My associate (Bobbi Ann Slate Gironda , long deceased) and I spoke with him and he suggested we talk to his mother who had had a good sighting near Albuquerque. We did speak to her and after she told us about the sighting, she mentioned that when she had been working at an Albuquerque Radio Station in the late 1940s, she was asked to type the story coming in from a broadcaster at their Roswell affiliate station for a newswire. He dictated how a flying saucer had been recovered and was being sent to Wright Field. Part way through the story the bell went off on the machine she was using to put the story on the news wire. The FBI instructed her not to continue the transmission. She remembered the names of some of the people and I located several, but came to a dead end. I should stress that New Mexico was a hotbed of classified Research and Development activities and certainly it was expected that there would be spies and counter intelligence concerns.


In 1978 I was in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, at a TV station to do three interviews before my lecture "Flying Saucers ARE Real!" that evening at Louisiana State University. I had done two, but the third reporter was nowhere to be found. The station manager was giving me coffee, looking at his watch, and was embarrassed as he knew the person who had brought me to the station and that I had other things to do. Out of the blue he told me that the person I ought to talk to was Jesse Marcel over in Houma, Louisiana. I asked "Who is he?" He answered "Oh, he handled wreckage of a flying saucer when he was in the military. We are old Ham radio buddies." The reporter finally showed up and I was busy the rest of the day. Next day from the Airport I called information and then spoke with Jesse who told me his story. This is described in detail in "Crash at Corona: The Definitive Story of the Roswell Incident" by Don Berliner and myself and available from my website at www.stantonfriedman.com. Jesse didn't have a precise date. I shared the story with Bill Moore (we had known each other in Pittsburgh, years before). I also saw him months later in Minnesota the day after meeting with Vern and Jean Maltaise of Bemidji, MN, who told me a story of their friend Barney Barnett who had come across a crashed saucer and strange bodies in New Mexico. Bill had a 3rd story (From the Flying Saucer Review) about an English actor named Hughie Green who heard a story on the radio about a New Mexico crashed saucer when driving from Los Angeles to Philadelphia. He could pin down a date (early July, 1947). Bill went to the U. of Minnesota Library and found the stories in newspapers in the periodicals department. These gave us an independent check on Jesse's story and the names of many more people . By 1980 we had located 62 people. That is when the first Roswell book "The Roswell Incident" by Bill Moore and Charles Berlitz was published. Bill and I did 90% of the research. By 1986 we had published several more articles and the total was up to 92. This was all before the internet made searching a lot easier and cheaper. I instigated, and was in, the Unsolved Mysteries NBC TV program about Roswell in 1989. It was well done and was seen by 28 million people.

Many others have joined in, some of the noisy negativists from their armchairs, and, of course, the government has issued two large reports full of misrepresentation and anti-UFO propaganda. I am still checking on some leads... and correcting the false information put out by the noisy negativists.

HORN: In 1984, a Hollywood movie producer named James Shandera investigating the UFO phenomena receives an anonymously mailed package of 35 mm film. It supposedly contains images of a top secret Government report, later named the "Majestic Twelve (or MJ-12) documents." You wind up with these documents. Tell us about that, and do you still believe some of the Majestic 12 documents are genuine?

STAN: I had introduced Jaime to Bill Moore while I was living in California and worked with Jaime and Bill briefly on a fictional movie that didn't get very far in 1980 before I moved from California to New Brunswick, Canada. Jaime and Bill worked closely together, saw each other often and worked with several insiders. We kept in touch by phone and during my travels. The film had two identical sets of 8 negatives each. The document was classified TOP SECRET/MAJIC. The title on the first page is "Briefing Document: Operation Majestic 12" Prepared for President Elect Dwight D. Eisenhower, 18 November, 1952. I was notified about its receipt and we cooperated on trying to determine whether the original two documents, the briefing and p.8, a memo from President Truman to Secretary of Defense Forrestal (Sept. 24, 1947) authorizing Operation Majestic 12, were genuine. Another brief Top Secret Restricted document, a memo, July 14, 1954, from Robert Cutler to General Nathan Twining, one of the MJ-12 members, was discovered at the National Archives. A very important part of my research dealt with my very surprising finding that Dr. Donald Menzel, who was an astronomy Professor at Harvard and had written 3 anti-UFO books, and who was listed as an MJ-12 member, actually led a double life doing highly classified work for decades for the NSA, the CIA, and 30 companies.

My book TOP SECRET/MAJIC gives the whole story and demonstrates that none of the myriad of anti-MJ-12 arguments stand up to careful scrutiny based on my visits to 20 archives and my 14 years of work on classified programs. It also demonstrates that there are a number of phony MJ-12 documents out there as well.

HORN: I talked with Jesse Marcel Jr. not long ago. He has a new book coming out that will be launched at the Roswell festival. He does not buy the Mogul balloon explanation about Roswell. What's your take on this?

STAN: The ridiculous MOGUL explanation put forth by Colonel Richard Weaver simply doesn't stand up to careful review as is noted in "Crash at Corona" and in several other of my papers. That his specialty is disinformation becomes quite clear. Mogul doesn't cut it. The materials don't match witness descriptions in terms of the characteristics and the quantity . Dr. David Rudiak at his website shows that no Mogul balloon could have landed on the Brazel ranch. Enginer Robert Galganski shows the amount of material is a total mismatch . If it doesn't fit, one must acquit.

HORN: Could the crash test dummies explain reports of alien bodies?

STAN: This attempt to explain the bodies observed by witnesses to the Roswell crashes is certainly one of the silliest of many totally false explanations put forth by government propagandists in a long history of such nonsense. There are 3 major problems with it:

1. All were dropped in 1953 or later; a minimum of 6 years after the Roswell crash. Last I heard, nobody had invented time travel, even for crash test dummies.

2. I met with Colonel Madson, who had been in charge of that program. For the tests to be meaningful, he noted that the dummies were 6' tall and weighed 175 pounds to match pilots. There was no way to morph them down to 4 foot tall skinny little guys with four fingers and big heads..

3. The Air Force report uses the same map of test drop locations three times. There were no dummy drops near either of the 2 crash sites (Brazel Ranch and Plains of San Agustin.)

HORN: Do you believe the government is covering up the truth about flying saucers?

STAN: It isn't a question of belief. One needs only to look at the multitude of lies over 60 year period of time, as well as the blacked out UFO documents from the CIA, the whited out UFO documents from the NSA (156 pages) on which one can only read one or two sentences

HORN: Why would they do that? What benefit is it to them to cover up the truth about flying saucers?

STAN: I have a paper on my website "The UFO 'Why' Questions" which discusses this in detail. Briefly: 1. All governments would like to determine how the saucers work since they obviously would make great weapons delivery and defense systems. With wreckage, one sets up a highly classified program. The basic rule for security is one can't tell ones friends without telling ones enemies. 2. What if the other guy figures out how they work before we do? We don't want them to know what we know or to know that we know what they know. 3. If an announcement were made, there would be at least 3 major effects; Church attendance would go up as would mental hospital admissions, the stock market would go down, and the younger generation would push for an Earthling rather than a nationalistic orientation. No government wants that. 4. Certain religious fundamentalists such as the late Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have loudly claimed there is no intelligent life outside of earth and the UFO stuff is the work of the devil. They would be up the creek without a religious paddle. 5. Some people would say they obviously must be more technologically advanced then are we, so soon there will be new methods of energy production, ground and air travel, computers and communication systems.. leading to economic chaos. 6. As is noted in the new book "Shoot Them Down" by Frank Feschino Jr., military pilots in 1952 were instructed to shoot down UFOs if they wouldn't land when instructed to do so. There are indications that the UFOs on occasion returned fire. No government wants to admit it has lost planes to UFOs. In parallel it took the government more than 50 years to admit that 166 military reconnaissance aircraft crew members had been shot down when tickling Russia or China or North Korea. Families were lied to as noted in the fine 2001 book "By Any Means Necessary" by William Burrows

HORN: Now let's turn to some technical questions. Doesn't relativity prevent interstellar travel?

STAN: Of course not. Time slows down as things approach the speed of light. This has been demonstrated. At 99.99% of the speed of light it only takes 6 months pilot time to go 37 light years. I worked on nuclear fusion propulsion systems in 1961. Using the right isotopes of hydrogen and helium one can eject charged particles having 10 million times as much energy per particle as in a chemical rocket.

HORN: Wouldn't it take too much energy to get to another galaxy?

STAN: Who cares? Andromeda is over 2 million light years away. But within just 55 light years of Earth there are about 2000 stars of which roughly 50 are very similar to the sun. If I need a loaf of bread for dinner I don't worry about going to that great bakery in Sydney, Australia, or even one in Sydney, Nova Scotia. I go to the supermarket 2 miles away. The amount of energy required depends on the details of the trip. One astronomer calculating the required initial launch weight of a rocket able to get a man to the moon and back was too high by a factor of 300 Million. One thing he neglected was cosmic freeloading, letting mother nature do much of the work as we do on all our deep space flights. Astronomers have very little knowledge of space travel.

HORN: What technique might be used to move around in the atmosphere the way saucers are reported to?

STAN: One of Friedman's laws is that technological progress comes from doing things differently in an unpredictable way. Lasers aren't just better light bulbs. The nuclear fission rockets I helped test almost 40 years ago are not just better chemical rockets. Entirely different physics in both cases. As I noted in my 1968 Congressional testimony, an attractive approach is magnetoaerodynamics similar to the electromagnetic submarine successfully tested in the mid 1960s by Dr. Stewart Way, but replacing seawater, an electrically conducting fluid, with ionized air another one. One technical-report literature search I had done noted 900 references; more than 90% were classified . Gets around all the problems of highspeed flight in the atmosphere.

HORN: Here's a big question I'm personally interested in. Where do you think these visitors originate?

STAN: The only UFO case that I know of that provides an answer is the fascinating abduction of Betty and Barney Hill in New Hampshire in September, 1961. Betty described a star map (model) under hypnosis . She drew it as a post hypnoctic suggestion by the skilled psychiatist hypnotist Dr. Benjamin Simon. It is in the first book "The Interrupted Journey". A brilliant woman named Marjorie Fish built 25 models of the local galactic neighborhood and was able to determine that the base stars in the map were Zeta 1 and Zeta 2 Reticuli in the Southern sky constellation of Reticulum. They are unique being the closest to each other pair of sun-like stars in our neighborhood. They are only 39.2 light years from here and only 1/8th of a light year apart from each other, and a billion years older than the sun. The work is described in detail in the new book due out in late July :"Captured! The Betty and Barney Hill UFO Experience" by Kathleen Marden (Betty's niece) and myself. We deal with the objections to both the case and the star map work. Not surprisingly none of the critics accurately described either.

HORN: Can you gives us a glimpse of what your Roswell 2007 Presentation will cover?

STAN: I will review the many technological changes that have occurred since July, 1947. Then there were no home computers, no internet, no space travel, no lasers, no supersonic aircraft, no fusion weapons, no microwaves or cell phones etc. Note will be taken of the 4 groups certain to be attracted to the Roswell story: A. Serious researchers. B. Nasty noisy negativists . C The government. (the last 2 have taken very strong stands that there can be nothing to UFOs therefore Roswell and MJ-12 can't be real). D The enthusiasts who are willing to bear false witness. I will review some of the religious aspects of the Roswell story, deal with the silliest attacks by the government and the debunkers, take note of some reasons for UFOs to be very interested in Southeastern New Mexico in July 1947. Should be fun.

HORN: Thanks for doing this interview, Stan. Please tell people where they can learn more about your research.

STAN: They can view my website at www.stantonfriedman.com or read my books TOP SECRET/MAJIC or "Crash at Corona", or "Captured" or view my DVD "Flying Saucers ARE Real!" or read my monthly columns in UFO Magazine and the MUFON Journal. My email address is fsphys@rogers.com. They can write me at POB 958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958

Thanks for asking. STF

Learn more about the 60th Anniversary Roswell Festivals see both websites: https://www.roswellufofestival.com
https://www.roswellufomuseum.com/festival.htm

More . . .

See Also:

On The Road To Roswell 2007: A Discussion With Col. Jesse Marcel Jr.
- Part II -

Interview With Thomas Horn, Controversial Author of The Ahriman Gate

Roswell - It Really Did Happen

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