Saturday, April 11, 2009

Bird Droppings and MJ-12, Stanton Friedman Responds . . .

Bird Droppings and MJ-12

By Stanton Friedman
www.stantonfriedman.com
© 4-10-09

Stan Friedman      I must say that I am quite disappointed in Robert Hastings recent bird dropping and MJ-12 articles. Robert has done some fine work on the connection between nuclear installations and UFOs. But his recent opus seems to me to be painted with much too broad a brush with too many nasty personal attacks on people (Doty, Collins, Moore, Tim Cooper) and far TOP SECRET - MAJICtoo little investigation and discussion about the Majestic 12 documents themselves. I saw no mention at all of “TOP SECRET/MAJIC” my 1997 book updated with a 5000 word afterword in 2005. The entire focus is on MJ-12 documents, the reasons some must be labeled as phony and others as genuine. I see no mention of my several detailed MUFON Symposium Papers about MJ-12 or such items as my detailed review of Kevin Randle’s “Case MJ-12” on my website www.stantonfriedman.com .

He says little about archive research. He touts Brad Sparks’ MUFON paper attacking the documents, but not my detailed rebuttal. As anybody who reads my publications would know, I long ago noted that I couldn’t accept any of the Tim Cooper documents. I carefully showed that at least 7 were emulations i.e. retyped slightly changed real documents that had been in print. Eisenhower Briefing DocumentI had found the originals. I noted flat out wrong statements in others. I have touted the Eisenhower Briefing Document, The Truman Forestall Memo and the Cutler Twining memo as genuine I believe I have successfully rebutted all the arguments against these in my publications. Jan Aldrich is certainly knowledgeable about army procedures and documents, but made the false claim (as did others) that the documents had to have had TOP SECRET CONTROL numbers. Not so.. Flying Saucers and ScienceI quoted archivists from the Eisenhower and Marshall libraries saying they have many TS documents without Control Numbers. Phil Klass noisily challenged me about the PICA type used in the CT memo.. and wound up quietly paying me $1000. for providing 14 documents using the same size and style PICA type.(payment limit was unfortunately 10). A copy of his check is in the MJ-12 Update Chapter in “Flying Saucers and Science” 2008. Joe Nickell of CSI attacked the documents wrongly in the Skeptical Inquirer (Jan/Feb.2009).I will let Bob Wood deal with SOM 1.01

SOM1 - 01 Manual

MJ-12 deniers claimed that the typeface for the 1947 TF memo wasn’t used until much later. Mr. Black a professional Forensic Documents examiner, hired by Robert and Ryan Wood, showed that it predated the TF memo by several years.. MJ-12 debunkers claimed the EBD was a hoax because it referred to Rear Admiral Hillenkoetter as Admiral. I showed that the use of generic ranks was very common in White House documents in the 1950s..

Joe Nickell claimed the EBD was a hoax because the data format (18 November, 1952; note the comma after November) violated the government style manual. In my visits to 20 archives I have seen many different date formats. People claimed that UFO debunker Donald Menzel couldn’t have been a member of MJ-12. I discovered at the Harvard Archives, much to my surprise, that Menzel had, unbeknownst to the UFO and Astronomy communities, done a great deal of very highly classified work for the CIA, NSA, and many companies.

I learned a lot not only from discussions with archivists, but also with people like noted historian Forrest Pogue, and George Elsey who worked at the White House all the time Truman was there.

I compiled and published lists of many details that were in the EBD, CT and TF memos that were not known to be true prior to receipt of the documents, but that later investigation proved to be true. How did a hoaxer know? I located Flight logs for General Twining and his pilot substantiating his flight to New Mexico on July 7, 1947, as noted in the EBD, and other relevant flights. Twining’s log had been in a classified box at the Library of Congress Manuscript Division for decades.

None of this is to say that Robert is not justified in some of his attacks on the activities and claims of Doty, Collins, Moore and Cooper. There were games played and I agree with some of his critiques. However, they are really separate from the documents themselves. A major area of difficulty involves claims that this or that date format was never used or was always used or that a certain kind of onionskin paper was always used for Robert Cutler carbons. I found exceptions.. One white crow proves not all crows are black. Guilt by association is not a scientific approach to document evaluation.



5 comments :

  1. Response to Walpurgisnacht

    I think your attack against Mr Friedman here is complete and utter nonsense. Its individuals like yourself that have an ulterior motive in spreading rubbish. It is this kind of information that stops genuinely interested academics for entering the field and your attack on Friedman is a perfect example of research by proclamation.

    Firstly Friedman’s response is to do with MJ-12 Documents, not Nazi UFOs. There are many researchers who find the Nazi UFO connection interesting, but not convincing in any way. Richard Dolan has said as much and I agree with him. Where is the evidence for these Nazi UFOs? We need more than a documentary, where are the documents, where is the witness testimony? My logic seems to work like this "If Nazis had anti-gravity, UFO technology, would they not have used it to beat the allies"?

    On the other hand UFOs have been seen before the Nazis came to power in countries all over the world, back in the 1800's. To accuse Friedman of being a disinformation agent after the huge contributions he has made to the UFO community is laughable in the extreme.

    With regard to the MJ-12 documents, many are bogus yes. However concluding they are all bogus simply because some of them are is false reasoning.

    Mr Friedman has claimed EBD, CT & TF memos are genuine. However I have not heard any critiques of these documents that have held up. Again it is this false reasoning that people fall into.

    And this is what leads me to the gravest conclusion of all. The personal attacks within the UFO field. Why is it, that every so often a researcher will attack another researcher openly in a public forum? Surely we are all fighting the same battle and a show of unity would be the biggest threat to the government’s secrecy on this issue.

    Read Mr Friedman’s Magnum Opus, Flying Saucers & Science to learn more about the man before accusing him of working for the CIA. Unlike many armchair theorists, he has been out in the field, fighting the Phil Klasses, Donald Menzels, Carl Sagans, Jo Nickells, Seth Shostaks & the other intellectual (UFO) Lightweights, whilst some "researchers" attack his work from ones armchair.

    So Mr Walpurgisnacht to finish this rant off.
    Read his books before you mouth off on an issue and do your homework. Mr Friedman doesn’t need anyone else to defend him, and I apologise if my reply has any mistakes, but I can’t stand by and leave such comments go unchallenged.
    Try & remember that without Mr Friedman, we would not have ever heard of Roswell, New Mexico.

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  2. Response to Walpurgisnacht

    I must respond one last time to the utter drivel being spouted by this guy. I will respond in detail but I will not respond any more than this simply because I have neither the time or patience to debate someone who is so utterly paranoid and lacking even a rudimentary understanding of the subject matter that so many have made contributions to over the years. The internet is a wonderful tool for us all but I have been warned before to be wary of certain types and it is only now I fully understand this. The UFO Community has its flaws yes, but at least we have good researchers that spend time writing papers and books, and SOURCING their comments with evidence, eye witness testimony. You still have not answered my questions from the previous post!

    As your last manic post.
    First paragraph Response.
    Show me the scientific paper and show me a researcher willing to put his/her name to this research who has published a book, or has a reputation to think about. The reason I cite this is most “researchers” research from the internet, and link together bits of data that don’t belong. We call these people “conspiracy theorists”.
    Remember you are claiming that every UFO sighting is a Nazi device. Forget the hundreds of thousands of hours of testimony claiming ET involvement. I notice that Dr. Benjamin Simon is not on your list of “undercover agents”, so maybe you don’t know who he was or what he represents so perhaps his techniques were just? I know Barney Hill said the creatures reminded him of Nazis but I think the comparison ended there?
    Second Paragraph
    You claim 90% of UFOs are manmade? I am interested as to what cogent evidence you are able to bring to bear on this? I know of five large scale scientific studies undertaken and none of them reveal the “facts” you are citing. Project Bluebeam I have heard of, but not seen evidence for, perhaps you have seen evidence and if so post it online. I need to see evidence.
    Paragraph 3
    Stanton Friedman was the first civilian investigator to investigate the Roswell Incident. After attending an interview he was told by the station producer/manager of Jesse Marcel. He contacted Marcel after tracking him down and took details of his story. No internet, no CD_ROM Phone books, all old fashion investigation and hard work. I can see why people get mad because after all the hard work some guy gets a keyboard and spouts absolute rubbish and has not even bothered to get his facts right.
    Just a little advice on this, GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. Even if you disagree with Friedman’s conclusions or stance, in order to refute a person you read the book, or read the paper before you can critique a person’s work. Have you done either? Given the comments I would guess No.

    Next Paragraph Re- Cooper.
    I have personally no doubt that Tesla tapped into an Energy (zero point etc...) and had his work covered up by the FBI. However to then say that the UFO phenomena is all Nazi disks because of Bill Cooper is a stretch. Cooper was murdered for telling the truth? Where is the evidence? EVIDENCE EVIDENCE EVIDENCE.
    Next Paragraph
    You mention here all the leaks are disinformation, when in the previous paragraph you say that Cooper was getting leaks from the inside. So Cooper’s leaks are genuine and ALL THE OTHERS are fake. Where is the evidence? People spouting such rubbish online is what gives UFOlogy a bad name. Show a person the 5 large scale scientific studies (what are they?) , show them the trail of the cover up and they will conclude there is something worth looking into here. Give them information that you are spouting, they lose interest in 2 minutes because it is all guess work and fiction.
    All these people you list, I have doubts in some of their work but 95% of these people have made greater contributions to the understanding of this field than you or I will ever make, and to simply label these people as government agents with NO EVIDENCE whatsoever is an act of intellectual high treason. You are deliberately trying to muddy the water for people. George Knapp a Freemason, like it means something. I know people who are Freemasons who work as miners, mechanics, IT consultants. Can you explain to me what a freemason is and if Mr Knapp is a freemason, what it means to his investigative work as a journalist? How do you know any of these characters are associated with any of the groups you mention? Are you Psychic or did Elvis tell you in a dream? Or wait a minute, you think Elvis was abducted by aliens disguised as Himler? HIMLER not HITLER.
    Your last statement for me to do my research is a joke, an utter joke. You have displayed a total lack on integrity and anyone thoughtful should take care to avoid you completely online or otherwise. When you accuse others of not doing their homework and then fail to backup your arguments with any credible evidence whatsoever is the biggest joke of all. There are many books that you should have read as a pre-cursor to login to a UFO website or Forum. But unlike you I base my opinions or conclusions on information that is written by credible, experienced researchers who source their work, allowing me to check it for myself. You base your conclusions on watching a documentary or two (I have no evidence of this but you don’t base your conclusions on reading any good books).
    For anyone reading this post in the days or years to come, I am choosing not to respond to any more “critiques” because the level of discussion matches that of a kindergarten. The arguments and accusations brought forward are libellous and I want no more discussion with such a vitriolic charlatan.
    My advice, disregard everything that has been written by Walpurgisnacht, and quickly.

    END OF DISCUSSION

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  3. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  4. Mike, et al,

    I have removed Walpurgisnacht's missive(s) for not complying to the "written rules" for comments, which are as follows:

    Comments are greatly appreciated, and coveted; however, blatant mis-use of this site's bandwidth to advertise a product or a web-site will not be tolerated.

    Additionally, healthy debate is invited; however, ad hominem and or vitriolic attacks will not be published. Please keep your arguments "to the issues" and salient muniments--FW

    ReplyDelete
  5. In response to Franks comments I wish to apologise to Frank and to anyone else that found my argument "too personal".

    My arguments were born out of frustrations and I will keep my comments on a sound foundation of facts.
    Many thanks
    Mike

    ReplyDelete

Dear Contributor,

Your comments are greatly appreciated, and coveted; however, blatant mis-use of this site's bandwidth will not be tolerated (e.g., SPAM etc).

Additionally, healthy debate is invited; however, ad hominem and or vitriolic attacks will not be published. Please keep your arguments "to the issues" and present them with civility and proper decorum-FW






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